Most of what you are doing now may not be working for a simple reason: because you are doing the wrong thing. That is the message of A.J Cheponis to many of his pallet industry colleagues.
With decades in sales and marketing and most recently working in the pallet and wood products industries, Cheponis knows what it takes to build a successful sales organization. He recently sat down with the publisher for Pallet Enterprise to discuss some of his insights on why so many pallet companies fail to drive sales growth. This is a fascinating discussion that will help readers identify areas where they can improve. To contact AJ Cheponis, call 954-520-9220 or e-mail aj.cheponis@benchmarkpallets.com.
Pallet Enterprise: What is the biggest sales and marketing mistake that most pallet companies make?
AJ Cheponis: So, right off the bat, they make the wrong hire. Many managers and executives were never trained in how to hire. They make assumptions regarding the person and frequently those assumptions are wrong. Hiring really boils down to behavioral characteristics. And you can take somebody with the right behavioral characteristics, with no product knowledge, no technical knowledge of a job, and you can train those people. And they’ll be wildly successful.
Pallet Enterprise: Why do so many employers make the wrong hire when it comes to sales and marketing staff?
AJ Cheponis: Many companies make the wrong hire because the person making the hiring decision looks at the resume and seeks out commonality. They are looking primarily at previous job experience. Does this candidate have the right experience? What they should be asking is, “Given the job description, is this person wired right to be successful at this job?”
I have come across many people who had a job for decades that they neither liked or excelled at, but that’s all they knew.
The overwhelming majority of pallet manufacturers or recyclers have an operational mindset. They’re very good at what they do, and most of them have created successful companies that build, repair and deliver pallets. The inherent skill set required for manufacturing operations is the polar opposite of a sales organization.
Pallet Enterprise: How can you find the right sales person?
AJ Cheponis: The best idea is to start by interviewing recruiters or headhunters and find one who understands sales. Then have that person or company look for your right candidate. It takes a different mindset to run a company than be a good recruiter or sales person. The better you are at running your company and building it up, the less likely you may be at finding the right sales person for your needs.
You do need to know how much sales you want to grow, and the capacity your operations has. You don’t want to hire a fantastic sales person who will quickly out pace your capacity. Then, you will lose that person who will go on for a more promising job.
And I always view top sales guys much like athletes. It’s a very focused, very specific field. And they have to be treated like that. The expense of hiring an expert will probably prove to be one of the best investments a small business owner can make. And I’ve seen a lot of small business owners just call a recruiter and tell them, “Here’s what I need.” But you should interview the recruiter and be picky to find the right fit.
Pallet Enterprise: Why do some top performers struggle at first at new sales gigs?
AJ Cheponis: Even before starting the sales process, the company needs to provide all the essential tools so that the new sales person has everything he or she needs to hit the ground running. This includes the right CRM, marketing lists, sales objectives, business cards, cell phones, dedicated phone number, company credit card, customer giveaway items, etc.
As silly as it sounds, something like not having a business card for a sales guy on day one… I’ve seen it really affect sales guys, in the weirdest way. The guy who could blast though walls, climb walls and dig tunnels to get to people. I see them get derailed at these seemingly silly details… Most operational-minded people might say, “That’s ridiculous.” But I’ve seen a company’s lack of preparation cause a setback to a good sales person.
Pallet Enterprise: How can software and online sales tools help or hurt sales efforts?
AJ Cheponis: A word of caution on Customer Relationship Management (CRM) systems. A lot of people look
at a CRM and they think it’s a great tool to monitor people’s activity. And in most larger companies CRM’s are an extension of accounting and operations. And I would advise anybody, or everybody, “Look you hired a professional. Show them trust and measure the results.”
CRMs are not a tool to look at how many calls they made, or how many appointments they have. You have to not look at how they obtain results, because you’ll drive yourself crazy. Because, deep down that’s not how you would do it. So, the idea of a CRM is really for their benefit. And I’ve had great sales guys over the years I’ve hired who are just not technology driven. Believe it or not, they are so much more functional and faster with a notepad, with their daily planner.
You have to give a new sales person some time to learn the market and get going. I would say that 120 days is a fair amount of time to see some measurable sales results.
Pallet Enterprise: A lot of pallet companies don’t even have a sales team. Do you think that if you’re a mid-sized pallet company, and you don’t have anybody who’s selling for you, isn’t that a mistake?
AJ Cheponis: I think it is. So, everyone has customers. And they went out, and they got customers. But the problem is that all oil wells run dry at some point. You have to keep drilling for oil or knocking on doors to sell pallets if you want to succeed in the long run.
I think if one guy in town has a good sales guy, whether you like it or not you need to get yourself a pretty good sales guy. Because, that good sales guy is going to be out now and pitching his services. And pitching himself. And he very well may take your customer away from you. Most operational guys don’t have the time to go out and create relationships with clients.
Pallet Enterprise: What about companies that have a part-time sales guy or someone who splits time between sales and customer service functions? What pitfalls should be avoided in those situations?
AJ Cheponis: You have to start with what your expectations and needs are. Most socially-oriented people are not detail-oriented. Those are polar opposite characteristics. If you want somebody who is very customer service-oriented, those people by nature tend to be more passive than sales-driven people. Customer service experts tend to be people pleasers who want customers to be happy. So, when you throw something at them that’s just not in their wheelhouse, they’re not going to do well.
I use a behavioral interviewing method that can be difficult to master, but it’s worth the effort, especially when so much is at stake. Before resorting to assessment shortcuts, it’s imperative you understand the methodology. I highly recommend you read the book Hiring Talent by a friend and mentor, Tom Foster. Foster takes the best elements from Elliot Jaques’ work on time horizons and the work of hiring guru Barry Shamis, weaves them together and delivers a remarkable outline on hiring talent.
Pallet Enterprise: What questions do you ask and how do you conduct interviews when looking for the right sales person?
AJ Cheponis: I view the interview process as looking for the right puzzle piece to fit our need and culture. You have hundreds of pieces and are looking for that one right piece to fit the puzzle. So, I’m going to ask questions of somebody like we’re friends. Because, I want to get to know somebody in a period of an hour as if I knew them for 20 years. Because, I look at hiring somebody as I’m going to interface with this person, and spend more time with this than I probably do my own family.
I want to dig deep to understand, really, how your brain is wired and why you make your decisions. And along the way, we’re going to have a really good conversation. If I hire the wrong sales person, it is a $100,000 mistake or more. My approach tends to be a bit unconventional. One of my questions is, “Look. You’re five years old. You come home from school. You tell your mom, ‘Hey. I want to be an actor.’ What would your mom have said?”
I’ll go into asking you things like, “What things in your childhood shaped the way you are today?” Or I may ask, “Tell me about a time when you surmounted very difficult odds. How did you handle this adversity?” It isn’t a surprise when sports was a big factor for high achievers as children or teenagers. Top sales people must know how to handle defeat and rejection.
On a more current note, I may ask, “Let’s say I call your best friend. How would your best friend describe you? Out of all the people you know, who’s had the most faith in you? Why? What are some of your best memories in life?”
And I’ll ask you, “Hey, listen. Try to grade yourself on a scale from 1-10. So, I’m going to throw out a couple of things. Give me a 1-10. Your drive and ambition. Your strength and confidence. Your ability to face rejection. Your strategic thinking. Time management. Getting around gate keepers. Self-improvement?”
And it’s so funny, almost every top performer will either say a 9 or a 10. I mean, they are cocky beyond belief and would usually scare most people off. With resounding confidence, its not unusual to hear “I’m a 10" over and over with maybe a 9 thrown somewhere. If a candidate responds, “Well, you know. That’s really difficult… I’m about a six.” You can almost be certain that person won’t be a top sales achiever.
Pallet Enterprise: What can you do to ensure that unhappy customers stick with you or that forgotten customers don’t jump ship for a dime per pallet price difference?
AJ Cheponis: I would tell people that you need to schedule regular quarterly meetings with your customers. Prepare a list of questions, hard questions. And tell them upfront, “Listen. I’m going to buy you lunch, wherever you want. We’ll go out. I have, probably, about 10 minutes, 15 minutes’ worth of questions. And this could very well end up taking an hour. Because, you might engage them.
You need to be ready to hear some potentially hard criticism. You actually want to hear them. You want that person to feel so comfortable that they could tell you anything. Because, you’re there to make things better. And so, the reason why you lose customers in a nut shell, is because you’re not having a conversation.
